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BibleTime

   1.6.4  

KDE Education

Score 70%
BibleTime
zoom


Link:  Link
Minimum required   KDE 3.x
Downloads:  6173
Submitted:  Jan 5 2004
Updated:  Apr 26 2007

Description:

BibleTime is a Bible Study application for KDE 3.x and provides a simple to use, but still powerful user interface.
On http://www.sf.net/projects/bibletime/ we offer binary packages for Fedora, SUSE and Mandriva.




Changelog:

Version 1.6.4 contains several important bugfixes, especially to the search functionality.
It also contains new translations to Chinese.




LicenseGPL
Source(BibleTime 1.6.4)
Source(BibleTime 1.6.4 translations)
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 1.5.1 ... stable!

 
 by HulkProtector1 on: Sep 13 2005
 
Score 50%

Good to see this version, 1.5 was slightly buggy, but it all seems fixed now :)


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 Intolerance...

 
 by mikkelhoegh on: Sep 13 2005
 
Score 50%

We don't have any real way of determining if these texts are truthful at all
The same could be said about a lot of the stuff so called scientists put out - Darwins theory of relativity, for one.

All in all, please find another vent for your intollerance, and thanks to the bibletime-crew for another new version. You guys rock!


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 Re: Intolerance...

 
 by IanInAcan on: Sep 14 2005
 
Score 50%

I'm sorry, __DARWINS__ theory of relativity, did I miss something. Was that in the same book as elvis's theory of gravitation.
I'm sure this package is a very worthwhile addition to KDE, but it does not belong in the SCIENCE section. The science section should be specifically reserved for scientific applications. Postulating that a work of fiction should be interpreted as a work of fact does not make it scientific. According to that logic, I could propose the hitchikers guide to the galaxy as a scientific text with the same level of validity. The reason I don't is that THHG makes is not a scientific theory, it is static text, it cannot be changed to better describe nature based on physical evidence. If want an understanding of why this package does not belong here, you could start by reassesing your definitions of 'science' and 'theory'. Theory is not a derogatory term, evolution is a theory but so is gravitation, this does not make jumping off of a tall building any less fatal. Science is open to evidence based change and has to make testable predictions. The Bible is a RELIGIOUS text, and nothing (including ignorance) will ever change that.


Ian
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 Re: Re: Intolerance.

 
 by mikkelhoegh on: Sep 14 2005
 
Score 50%

Just as you can refuse to believe in gravitation, you can also refuse to believe that God exists or his world is fiction, but that will also catch up with you sooner or later.

BibleTime is a study-tool, made for scientific analysis of biblical texts. Whether the text itself is true or false does not change that.


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 Re: Re: Re: Intolera

 
 by IanInAcan on: Sep 14 2005
 
Score 50%

scientific study of the bible

From 'www.bibletime.info' "It is the hope of the BibleTime team that this HowTo will provoke the readers to study the scriptures to see what they say.". The program allows you to read and interprate scriptures. In case nobody has told you, this is __not__ science. This is religion.


Just as you can refuse to believe in gravitation, you can also refuse to believe that God exists or his world is fiction,


OK, I'll refuse to believe in god and you refuse to believe in gravity. I'll avoid church and you can jump off a tall building, sound good?

Oh, and in reference to whatever it is that "will catch up with me sooner or later" is that a specific threat or does it apply to any non christians.

I'm sure this program is very worthwhile and a valuable resource for Christians, my objection is that it is not a scienctific application. It is in the wrong section.


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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Into

 
 by mikkelhoegh on: Sep 15 2005
 
Score 50%

It seems we're not going anywhere with this. I think it belongsunder scientific. If you have further complaints, please bother someone else :)

And I'm not trying to threaten you. Depending on where you grew up, you'll probably know that the punishment for denying God and living a "normal" life by the worlds terms is... Hell. Eternal.

You don't believe that? Fine. That is your loss.


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by thraxas on: Oct 16 2005
 
Score 50%

There is no Gravity. The Earth Sucks


Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Intolerance.

 
 by timbrown527 on: Dec 5 2005
 
Score 50%

*...a work of fiction...*

If you take the time to look at what the Bible teaches about history and how archaeolgy has validated it, including the life of Christ, you might find yourself rethinking this...

*According to that logic, I could propose the hitchikers guide to the galaxy as a scientific text with the same level of validity. The reason I don't is that THHG makes is not a scientific theory, it is static text, it cannot be changed to better describe nature based on physical evidence. If want an understanding of why this package does not belong here, you could start by reassesing your definitions of 'science' and 'theory'. Theory is not a derogatory term, evolution is a theory but so is gravitation, this does not make jumping off of a tall building any less fatal. Science is open to evidence based change and has to make testable predictions. The Bible is a RELIGIOUS text, and nothing (including ignorance) will ever change that.*

Gravitation is a fact and a law, not a theory.

The bible also agrees with the laws of thermodynamics, alludes to the Earth free floating in space, hydrology, as well as geologic isostacy. It also teaches that things reproduce "...after their own kind", which is what we see going on...(microevolution or mere variation within kinds). Oh, yes, the Old Testament also speaks of the "bound" and "unbound" nature of Orion and the Plaeides. But then "...that can't be true because people didn't know these things then..."; unless of course, the Bible is a book breathed by God, who made all these things.

I think it was the apostle Paul who wrote that God made "...things that are visible from things that are not visible." That is a true statement. Well, those things...such as atoms...are now visible.

You mention "testable predictions". If I were to tell you that I was going to spend One Million bucks on a lottery that only gave me 10 to the 70th power of a chance to win, you'd rightly say I was a fool...and if I won, you would probably think it was rigged...especially if I told you ahead of time I would win.

Someone has calculated that this is like covering Texas three feet deep in silver dollars, marking one, and parachuting someone to earth to pick that marked coin up on the first try.

Well, I've just given you the odds of Jesus Christ fulfilling just TEN of the prophecies about Him (that we know were written before the fact...including those that He would have no control over such as where He was born, people gambling over His clothing while He was on the Cross, etc.) Ten to the 70th power. The Bible said it would happen, and it did. The manuscripts were found and dated. We know they predate the events. And I'm only talking about the ones related to Christ, not also the ones related to the fall of Tyre, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. It all happened. Look through history; people go around denying that you can trust the Bible about some historic event then *wham*, some archaeologist digs up something that shows it happened as the Bible teaches.

The Bible isn't just a "religious text". It also gives us history and when it speaks of things in the scientific realm, it has been shown to be accurate.


Ten out of Ten people die...
www.needgod.com

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 Re: Intolerance...

 
 by mengle on: Oct 18 2005
 
Score 50%

"Darwins theory of relativity"
This is so wrong on so many levels I can't tell if I want to laugh or cry.

I do question whether or not this should be classified under the science category. Even if it's primarily used as a resource guide I don't think science is the right category, maybe the education category is better suited becomes it seems more like a study guide. I'm not trying to be offensive to the author but it may be more popular if moved to a category where people would think to look for it.


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 Re: Intolerance...

 
 by Vewyn on: Nov 6 2005
 
Score 50%

Speaking of intolerance... by the look of the threads connected to this particular software the general concensus is that all other religions are okay as long as it isn't Christianity.

If you don't think the Bible is truth, then what should you care about the Christian beliefs? Should I jump down the throat of buddhists or muslims every time they do something I disagree with perhaps? If you want tolerance of your religion, then give tolerance for the religion of others.

For the record, I'm not Christian.


Reply to this

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.

 Drawing a line

 
 by JessicaX on: Oct 4 2005
 
Score 50%

Lets be VERY clear here. Don't reply with lies, because this is the truth - Religion and science, even SAYING them together sounds like a juxtaposed sentence, and it's TRUE.

Notice that enything we cant explain according to christianity is the work of the devil? No, it is not.

The line drawn is here; Religion IS NOT science, when i look at science, particularly if i was relating to a scientific principle, theory, or software -> It is presumed that id would be used for a scientific purpose.

Now, the study into WHY people look into religion is science, YES. Religion itself IS NOT SCIENCE.

The last comment - PLEASE PLEASE show some respect for other religions, and AT LEAST acknowledge the concerns of others.

The writings of ANY BOOK do not overshadow that feact that what is going on here is more than a classification error - > the comments posted, and the overall ethos is that you're trying to say that Christianity and the Bible is so correct it's to a scientific standard, and it IS NOT.

Please, PLEASE put this in Other, and if you're wanting to love thy neighbour as thy brother, or sister being any stretch of distance, then show respect for their concerns, feelings and criticisms.

In short-> Posting in science makes it look like you're trying to justify Christianity is correct, by classifying it as scientific, could not be further from the truth.

Show some form of decency and remove it from Scientific. Bible studies is not scientific, again because the Bible, as a text is classed as literature -> eg written, or transcribed text.


Reply to this

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 Re: Drawing a line

 
 by Sho on: Oct 16 2005
 
Score 50%

This is not a "religious" application, it's a piece of software that facilitates studying the Christian bible, a volume that has greatly influenced Western civilization no matter your religions believes. All sorts of people might have a valid scientific interest in studying the bible: theologists, literature students, history students, the list goes on.

I think placing BibleTime in the "Scientific" category is thus quite valid.

Not that it plays a role in the matter at hand, but I might note that I'm not a Christian.


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 the EDUCATIONAL sect

 
 by blurymind on: Oct 23 2005
 
Score 50%

I must agree with this one.This should go to the Education section,as religion is NOT science,but a part of our culture philosofical education.There are many religions and many gods,our christian religion isnt any different and should be in the educational section.There are different sciences about religion and its origins,but religion by itself is no science.


...and May the source be with you.. @655
Reply to this

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 Science

 
 by manowah on: Nov 8 2005
 
Score 50%

Science is a search for Truth. There are many avenues. Get over it. Really!


Gary
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 Re: Science

 
 by ArbitraryReason on: Nov 30 2005
 
Score 50%

I can't take this seriously, Come wise up, religion is a means to control people by using there fear of the dark and the threat of eternal pain against them. You can be a decent, caring, honest human being without religion, just set an example and be true to yourself and others ! Emperor Constantine embraced the christian faith and launched a whole new roman empire.... the Catholic Church...who have committed bigger acts of genocide than Attila the Hun, Genghis khan,Hitler and Pol Pot put together! IMHO Religion is no more than Dark age Politics, and has got NOTHING to do with Science, not even Science fiction for that matter. Still can take this seriously! its a joke right... come on Fess up !


Funny, It Worked Last Time...
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 Re: Re: Science

 
 by wa7qzr on: Nov 30 2005
 
Score 50%

" You can be a decent, caring, honest human being without religion, just set an example and be true to yourself and others !"

Of course, you are prepared to offer hundreds upon thousands of documented examples of the above. Not that it matters because being decent, honest and caring are not the goals of the Christian faith.

Additionally, everyone is "religious", one way or another. It's just a matter of identifying who the "god" is they serve. Most people, it seems, serve themselves, therefor, they consider themselves to be "god", although they might not say so in so many words.

"Emperor Constantine embraced the christian faith and launched a whole new roman empire.... the Catholic Church...who have committed bigger acts of genocide than Attila the Hun, Genghis khan,Hitler and Pol Pot put together!"

The Catholic Church shouldn't be viewed as represenative of anything but Catholicism; And that has little in common with biblical Christianity. No honest, objective historian will tell you otherwise.

I have to wonder why the Muslims were not included in your list of murdurers? Have you ever considered the amount of combined Christian and Jewish blood on the Muslim's collective hands?

There are also plenty of murduring secular humanists out there as well. And they, being for the most part Darwinists, can easily rationalize their barbarity as "... survival of the fittest ..."

One wonders though: What were the physical precursors of the protein pathways in retinial cells and by what mechanism did they evolve?


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 Re: Re: Re: Science

 
 by ArbitraryReason on: Dec 1 2005
 
Score 50%

What ever the christian goals are, being honest and decent should be on the list... surprised me! Where do your goals get you? do you Really believe in heaven and hell ? Remember God created evil, Lucifer Morning star was his right hand man, had a bit of blow out with two wars in heaven and got relegated, yes I said 2 wars in heaven..... not all of bible is in the king James version.... Oh, nearly forgot christians are new testement only right..... I guess most good people server there own higher being, the need to better them selves and the world around them. My mention of the Catholic church was used to highlight my view that 99% of all religions are used to manipulate people and power. Don't start me on the Muslims..... but I don't think they have forgotten the genocide we heaped on them during the Crusades...... One wonders though: What were the physical precursors of the protein pathways in retinal cells and by what mechanism did they evolve? All the better to see you with said the big bad wolf, my guess is food, you need to see it or catch it, means of survival... Darwinism. Anyway, I must remember this is a Linux Desktop forum, not a religious stage. To believe in a higher being is a weakness of the mind, its comforting to think that there is an all powerful god looking after you and you loved ones and your internal soul.... I hope that man will evolve past this one day, its a huge problem that inhibits our mental, psychological and social evolution.


Funny, It Worked Last Time...
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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Scie

 
 by timbrown527 on: Dec 5 2005
 
Score 50%

*do you Really believe in heaven and hell ?*

Yes. Sure do. Primarily because of the testimony of God's Word, the Bible. But also because of the testimony of those who deal with death and have witnessed the death of those who are believers and those who are not. But primarily because of the Scriptures, not the witnessed experiences of others.

*Remember God created evil*

False. God created both man and the angelic hosts with the ability to choose obedience or disobedience. Both groups chose the latter.

*Oh, nearly forgot christians are new testement only right.....*

Again, false. Biblical Christianity accepts both old and new Testaments.

*My mention of the Catholic church was used to highlight my view that 99% of all religions are used to manipulate people and power. Don't start me on the Muslims..... but I don't think they have forgotten the genocide we heaped on them during the Crusades......*

Yup. There's alot of that going on. But that doesn't invalidate Christianity. The Crusades involved alot of things that were contrary to what Christianity is about and that the Bible teaches. On the other hand, Darwinism and evolutionary thought has been taken to it's philosophical logical conclusion and we have the Nazi Holocaust, euthenasia and abortion. After all, we are just protoplasm waiting to become manure...or so they claim.

*One wonders though: What were the physical precursors of the protein pathways in retinal cells and by what mechanism did they evolve? All the better to see you with said the big bad wolf, my guess is food, you need to see it or catch it, means of survival... Darwinism.*

...but then how would an animal or organism survive to evolve if it didn't first have sight? You are implying that it needs eyes to see. Then how did it live without sight and therefore food?

But at least you were honest enough to use the word "guess", which along with the words "suppose" and "surmise" are used in "scientific" circles. One wonders where observation, testing, verification and replication are in this "science". I didn't know "guess", "Surmise", "suppose", etc., were scientific terms.

Just a few other questions you could ask of evolution:

1. How did blood clotting evolve?
2. How did a given organism survive, if wounded, until clotting evolved.
3. Why didn't the species die off then?
4. What came first, the need for clotting? If not, why did it become part of the organism?
5. what came first, the digestive system or the need to eat?
6. Assuming digestion came first, how did things stay alive until the desire to eat evolved?
7. Assuming the desire to eat came first, how did things get digested so the organism or animal could *survive*.
8. When the first organism came out of the water and set foot on land, with what did it procreate to give rise to more of its kind? In other words, Mr. fish had to have a mate! So, a female fish *just happened to evolve at the same time and be in the right place?*

And if you "know" the answers to any of the previous, how do you "know" them?


Ten out of Ten people die...
www.needgod.com

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scie

 
 by ArbitraryReason on: Dec 5 2005
 
Score 50%

Oh come on, stop with the religious spin, its all very transparent, and insults my intelligence.


The source of your faith is the Bible, it is flawed on so many levels, it has be selectively edited more times than any other piece of literature on the planet, mainly by the Church to highlight the power chapters and conceal the contradictions and flaws.


According to the Bible the earth is only a few thousand years old..... there were no dinosaurs, there was no evolution, we all started from a very small gene pool Adam and Eve.... its laughable !



It is a work of fiction with no proof at all! the only ancient text we have that is likely to be untainted is the dead sea scrolls and they contradict the bible, I have read that translations of said scrolls refer to Jesus as a kind of Jim Morrison of his time , no mention of the incredible miracles the bible speaks of....


We all evolved from single cell organisms, this has been proved, and holds water, name one, just one thing the bible claims that can be proved.


There is no Egyptian historical records of the outlandish story of the Israelites flight of Egypt, the plagues , the sea parting..Etc..Etc


Did all life on the planet have to start again from the meager gene pool saved by Noah? I think not!


And even if I was a religious person who are the Christians to suggest that there god is the only god and try to convert all others? take your bible out of my throat!


Keep your religion to yourself, but if your going to live by the bible and worship it, I suggest you read all of it, it is estimated that the King James Bible has only a fraction of the writings.... most have been "filed" by the Church over the century's to serve there own ends.


Its a story, that's all, and like most story's the more people that edit it the bigger the story gets, and some more adage, history is written by the victorious.


I know that science can explain a hell of allot more of the universe than the bible can, pardon the pun!
Science will be the one to solve poverty, starvation and sickness not religion, religion just thrives on it.


If there is a all powerful omnipresent being that is responsible for creating the universe and stands in judgment of the way we lived our very short lives, I would think he/she/it is intelligent enough to judge us on our humanity and not our adherence to a contradictory story book that seems to prevent all mankind from growing and EVOLVING into more enlightened intelligent beings.



Christianity is just one of thousands of religions, although they seem to be in the top ten religions wanting to change this fact.



My suspicion is that our gene pool has be meddled with by our extraterrestrial Grey friends for thousands of years, this would explain the missing link between Cro Magnon man "modern humans & tools makers" and Neanderthal man, tis very strange how Cro Magnon man just appeared in a small part of France "don't quote me" 40 thousand years ago, no fossil records before that...as yet


Anyway the big issue is that if there are Aliens , the main reason in hiding this from the general public would be to prevent mass religious panic/riots and chaos, since little gray men don't quite fit in the Bible....along with science, evolution, dinosaurs, quantum physics..etc..etc

I supose it takes all kinds to make a world.....


Lets take any further options of this kind off line, this is a KDE website remember, although the amusement value is probably very high its not the correct podium for this line of debate.


Funny, It Worked Last Time...
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

 
 by timbrown527 on: Dec 23 2005
 
Score 50%

"Oh come on, stop with the religious spin, its all very transparent, and insults my intelligence."

I noticed you didn't answer my questions about evolution. You have no answers?

One day sir you WILL stand before a holy God. Contrary to what many percieve Him as, He is not just "Loving" he is also JUST. But you know, even though he is a just Judge, He demonstrated His love for us by offering His Son to pay the penalty for our sin. He demands payment for sin, just as any good judge would demand payment for crime. We all sin and fall short of God's Standard. The question is what will you do with the One Who made payment for your sin?

You have CHOSEN to come into this thread KNOWING it was about the Bible, or God, or something. My prayer for you is that perhaps deep inside, you are seeking some answers. I also pray you find them and not harden your heart.

------------------
"The source of your faith is the Bible,"

No, the source of my faith is the Lord Jesus Christ. And saving faith comes from the Lord Jesus Christ.


---------------------------
"it is flawed on so many levels,"

Prove it. Be VERY specific. What is wrong with either the Old or New testaments?


------------------------
"it has be selectively edited more times than any other piece of literature on the planet,"

I could say "prove it" but then the Dead sea scrolls show that what we have is still accurate.

----------------------------
"mainly by the Church to highlight the power chapters and conceal the contradictions and flaws."

Again, I'm not involved with the Roman Catholic church. Again, what flaws????

--------------------
"According to the Bible the earth is only a few thousand years old..... there were no dinosaurs, there was no evolution, we all started from a very small gene pool Adam and Eve.... its laughable !"

Actually, 6,000 to 10,000.

No dinosaurs? Hardly. We find Biblical references to beasts that we would recognize as a dinosaur. Man coexisted with them.

About Adam and Eve... It's "OK" to say that life comes from non-life (You might want to check out the "Law of Biogenesis") But somehow you have a problem with Life (God) creating life? Oh and if evolution occurred, where did the extra information come from for the new Macroevolutionary organism? Please don't appeal to mutations. Mutations cause a net loss in information, not an addition of information, so please don't go there...


-------------------
"It is a work of fiction with no proof at all! the only ancient text we have that is likely to be untainted is the dead sea scrolls and they contradict the bible, I have read that translations of said scrolls refer to Jesus as a kind of Jim Morrison of his time , no mention of the incredible miracles the bible speaks of...."


ROTFL! How Ironic! You apparently don't know that the Dead Sea Scrolls were the nail in the coffin of that argument a very long time ago! They sir, do NOT contradict the Scriptures, rather they AFFIRM them! The dead sea scrolls effectively killed the "The Bible is full of transmission errors" problem.

Today we have 24,000 or so manuscripts for our scriptures. You probably wouldn't question the accuracy of Homer's Illyad, but it only has roughly 600! What are you going to do with 24,000 manuscripts affirming the accuracy of what we have now? Ignore them? To your own eternal peril!

50 years ago or so before the scrolls were found, you may have had some traction with that argument. But not now.

---------------
"We all evolved from single cell organisms, this has been proved, and holds water, name one, just one thing the bible claims that can be proved."

Evolution has been *proven* to be true? That's news to me! Where are all the transitional forms? And of course there are all those nasty questions I asked you in my previous post which you didn't answer yet.

And of course, how did the cell evolve? It couldn't function without all its parts! Just HOW did it evolve? Can You Tell Me? If there is PROOF you surely can point to it! And I don't mean "We think" or "We Surmise"...That ain't science. Hypothesis, theory, testing, observation. Without that, you haven't got science, just guesswork. When was life created from non-life in a lab...and if it couldn't be done on purpose, how does it make sense to say it happened by chance (as if chance does anything...as if it is a force of some kind).

Ok, Now, I'll answer your question. The Bible speaks of the Hydrologic cycle. It speaks of a free floating earth in space. It speaks of "the House of David, whom many mocked as a fable...until Geologists dug up artifacts referencing "the house of David". And of course we have SECULAR sources that tell us Christ lived. The "Jesus Seminar" was made up of some of the most heretical, liberal "scholars" who came up with all sorts of nonsense about Jesus...but they never questioned that he lived. So the question isn't "Did Jesus Live" but rather "What will you do with Him"?

---------------------
"There is no Egyptian historical records of the outlandish story of the Israelites flight of Egypt, the plagues, the sea parting..Etc..Etc"

This is called an "argument from silence". "Since I don't see the information, it didn't happen". This is a logical fallacy. I haven't researched archaeological finds from that area, but if it hasn't shown up yet, it probably will. It's happened over and over again. Just like so many other arguments about the bible...those nasty archaeologists keep digging up stuff that verifies it.


--------------
"Did all life on the planet have to start again from the meager gene pool saved by Noah? I think not!"

And of course I ask "Did all life on the planet come from the meager gene pool in some pre-biotic slime? That, of course, is a guess, not science. I have a Bible that has been shown to be historically reliable. Science? No. But an historical record. And again, science has not created life from non-life, nor demonstrated that it happened.

I love it when people resort to "It didn't have to..." whatever. It's a weak effort to avoid the issue. My house didn't HAVE TO be built from brick and wood, but it WAS...


------------------
And even if I was a religious person who are the Christians to suggest that there god is the only god and try to convert all others? take your bible out of my throat!

Jesus Christ said "I am THE way, The Truth and THE life. No one gets to the Father but by me." John 16:4. Jesus accepted worship as God. He Himself claimed exclusivity. Truth by nature IS exclusive.

As far as "taking the Bible out of your throat", you weren't forced into this thread...were you??? What is happening is the basic "You have no right to shove your values on me"? Well, isn't that what you are doing? You say "Who are the Christians to..." you are turning around and doing the same thing.

But again, there is no force here. You saw the thumbnail for this entry at KDE-LOOK and you chose to enter the thread. Who's fault is that?


-------------------
"Keep your religion to yourself, but if your going to live by the bible and worship it, I suggest you read all of it, it is estimated that the King James Bible has only a fraction of the writings.... most have been "filed" by the Church over the century's to serve there own ends."

You certainly don't keep your "religion" (darwinism) to yourself. And it is a faith system...which makes it a form of religion.

I don't worship the Bible. I worship the God of the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ, who died to pay the penalty for my sin and was risen from the dead to show that his sacrifice for me was acceptable to God the Father.

The other writings you refer to were rejected because they were shown to be errant. The Old and New Testaments have repeatedly been shown to be reliable documents. Again, you either don't understand or are choosing to misrepresent the facts.

----------------------
*Its a story, that's all, and like most story's the more people that edit it the bigger the story gets, and some more adage, history is written by the victorious.*

Then I take it you haven't heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? They have been dated back by hundreds of centuries B.C. And it demonstrated that what we have now is still accurate. And Yes, there are alot of stories in the Bible. And one after another, stories that are scorned as "untrue" are proven historically accurate by archaeology. Try again.

------------------------
*I know that science can explain a hell of allot more of the universe than the bible can, pardon the pun!
Science will be the one to solve poverty, starvation and sickness not religion, religion just thrives on it.*

That's what modernism claimed; but we still have poverty; and it isn't getting better. Wrong again. You are behind the times.

------------------------
"If there is a all powerful omnipresent being that is responsible for creating the universe and stands in judgment of the way we lived our very short lives,"

Yes, there is.

-------------------------
I would think he/she/it is intelligent enough to judge us on our humanity..."

That is PRECISELY what you don't want...in our humanity, we have all "sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". You don't want to be judged by your "goodness". It falls short of God's standard. That's why Christ (who is Perfect) came and paid a penalty He didn't owe...to eliminate our debt of sin if only we will turn from our sin and trust in Him alone.

----------------------
"...and not our adherence to a contradictory story book..."

Contraditions? Name ONE. You will NOT surprise me..

------------------
"...that seems to prevent all mankind from growing and EVOLVING into more enlightened intelligent beings."

To the contrary, Paul in Romans 12 says to the believers to "...be transformed by the renewing of our minds..." To be conformed bit by bit into what God has for us. Growth? YES. Evolving? In a sense, that is kind of the idea. God is at work, changing me slowly over time to conform to what He wants me to be! You come to Christ to be washed of your sin, and then the process of growth and maturation begins.

------------------
*Christianity is just one of thousands of religions, although they seem to be in the top ten religions wanting to change this fact.*
---------
False again. True, there are many religions in the world. But Chrisitianity is unique from all of them. It offers a Savior.


---------------------------
"My suspicion is that our gene pool has be meddled with by our extraterrestrial Grey friends for thousands of years,"

E.T.s? Where are they? Have you made contact? You won't allow for God, but you just move the problems to E.Ts that never seem to show up? Lots of Hubble pics, no saucers that I have seen.

Again, you are guessing!

-----------------------------
"this would explain the missing link between Cro Magnon man "modern humans & tools makers" and Neanderthal man, tis very strange how Cro Magnon man just appeared in a small part of France "don't quote me" 40 thousand years ago, no fossil records before that...as yet"

Let's see...Cro Magnon man...the physique and brain capacity were at least equal to modern man, so what is the difference?

Neanderthal Man? I think it was at the international Congress of Zoology in I think the late 50's where it was showed that Neanderthal man was just an old man who suffered from arthritis. So you want to make links between two humans?

Of course, then there was "Nebraska man" which was created by an artist based on a pig's tooth. Then there was Piltdown man who was built from a jawbone from a modern ape.

--------------------
"Anyway the big issue is that if there are Aliens , the main reason in hiding this from the general public would be to prevent mass religious panic/riots and chaos, since little gray men don't quite fit in the Bible....along with science, evolution, dinosaurs, quantum physics..etc..etc

I supose it takes all kinds to make a world....."

Yes, yes, of course. Well at least you are holding back on the "aliens messed with our genes" argument.

---------------------
"Lets take any further options of this kind off line, this is a KDE website remember, although the amusement value is probably very high its not the correct podium for this line of debate."

Then I assume that in the future you will allow those who believe differently to post things here without starting one.

It's your choice.


Ten out of Ten people die...
www.needgod.com


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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scie

 
 by weizhan2008 on: Apr 27 2007
 
Score 50%

only for a test!



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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Science

 
 by wa7qzr on: Dec 8 2005
 
Score 50%

One wonders though: What were the physical precursors of the protein pathways in retinal cells and by what mechanism did they evolve? All the better to see you with said the big bad wolf, my guess is food, you need to see it or catch it, means of survival... Darwinism.


I don't think you understood the question. Darwinism cannot explain how the irreducibly complex structure of so much as a single cell evolved, let alone specialized, complex collections of cells which make up structures such as the retina of the eye. Without protien pathways, the cell would die before it could realize that it needed them to process food, but then, is it right to assign self-awareness, desire, and a survival instinct to a cell?


Protein pathways within a cell are the conduits of food and waste products to and from specialized areas of every cell. Darwinism would have us to believe that these pathways, which are necessary for even the simplest of cells to function, should have evolved from something else. What that something else is or was, is what I was asking about. An appeal to Darwinism as an answer is insufficient because, the mechanisim of Darwinism cannot be identified or defined. To do so is intellectually dishonest. It's faith in Darwinism, which is a religious posture, and nothing more.


As for your remarks concerning the Bible and biblical Christianity, you might want to consider doing a little research into the subject before hurling out such insulting, to say nothing of incorrect, remarks. That may be the politically-correct, NSF-approved way to deal with Christians who question Darwinism, but it most certanily is not intelligent.


So, Mr. Phelps, your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to determine how cells evolved first, then, perhaps we can discuss the supposed evolution of higher, more complex forms of life. Until then, however, Darwinism, should be intellectually honest enough to accept it's place as a primitive naturalistic faith by which athiests attempt to explain away what they are unable to explain any other way.


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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science

 
 by ArbitraryReason on: Dec 23 2005
 
Score 50%

Lets get this right, "One day Sir you Will stand before a Holy God" This is your belief..it's not fact, You can't prove it, and it does not scare me in the least, In-fact I find it somewhat sick and amusing at the same time, spout all the fire and brimstone your like....

Well thanks for the pray, Baptized Christian in name alone I be, but I'm just not a believer, nor am I a Darwinist, I know it has many holes in its theory, Intelligent design has crept into the picture but that does not indicate a GOD element anymore than any of early man's superstitions.

I'm not going to go through all your statements point by point as you have done, I think I'll cut to the crux of this...

If as you will have me believe the universe was created 6-10 thousand years ago, and we all descend from Adam and eve is the basis of YOUR religion I say its nonsense.

Just checking out the results of inter-breading in some southern states alone will give you an answer on that.

So it leads..all other religions have it wrong... they will all go to hell!

All the Muslims, all the Buddhist's, Hindu's. Catholics.... Wow! Satan must be well up in the numbers by now!

But is it not written in the bible, or was... somewhere that if just one soul in Hell were to ask for Gods forgiveness, all of hell would be set free ... or words to that effect, I remember that from some Discovery program, care to elaborate ?


I see more and more of this Creationist Crusade on the net every day, ever since the Genesis Flood and Intelligent design Books hit about ten years ago, Oh look there's a hole in the Old earth science lets plug it with GOD!

I can only guess at the master plan, but it looks to be one of getting the GOD word into every science class in the world, although it has failed in the US supreme courts.... does not fit with the first amendment very well does it!

So carbon 14 dating has it all wrong then ?

The ability to map the DNA double helix has opened up a can of worms, it is more complex than we can understand AT THE MOMENT, that does not constitute a GOD, of any sort! yours, mine, or Bob's down the road!

And as for the dead sea scrolls, From what I have gleaned... Your correct it does not directly contradict the Bible, it appears to share many borrowings, but, it does not color or embellish with the stories of all the many and wonder full miracles either....strange that !

Strange also how the earliest adopted scriptures and writings are actually written in Greek not Hebrew.

Man and dinosaur coexisted, that was proved to be a hoax. Don't argue on this... Just Google it, it will all become clear.

I find it strange that an obviously intelligent individual as your self subscribes whole heatedly to the notion that all human kind is derived from two individuals six thousand years ago.

I also find it some what of a Revelation as to what the Christian faith declare as scripture and non scripture, seems that non-scripture is the stuff of contradiction....

brief list: books of - Enoch, Michael the Archangel, Jannes and Jambres, The Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Elijah, and Ascension of Isaiah, The Apocrypha.

Please feel free to give me your spin on this...don't just write it of as not considered christian scripture just because these books get a bit wild in the fable sense.

Basically when it comes down to it, I have the choice to believe the account of the Universe from the Bible or from science... I take science.


Obvious fact is that religion, whatever the source, the Bible, the Koran, the Tora, is based on interpretation, unlike science in the main has its basis in fact, reproducible evidence, I prefer to acknowledge factual evidence and not fable scripture, or different spins and interpretations on religious historical texts.

And if I'm "according to YOUR God" going to burn in hell for that.... then so be it, I doubt I'll be alone, Or I could convert to Catholicism and confess all at the last moment.....just joking ! ;)

Peace Out !


Funny, It Worked Last Time...
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Science

 
 by timbrown527 on: Dec 5 2005
 
Score 50%

*I can't take this seriously, Come wise up, religion is a means to control people by using there fear of the dark and the threat of eternal pain against them.*

No doubt alot of people do this; but that does not invalidate the Biblical Christian faith; People abuse others but that doesn't make the claims of Christianity false.

*You can be a decent, caring, honest human being without religion, just set an example and be true to yourself and others!*

Sure you can. But that won't make you "right" before a holy God. The problem is the heart. "Man's righteousness does not achieve the righteousness of God."

*Emperor Constantine embraced the Christian faith and launched a whole new roman empire.... the Catholic Church...who have committed bigger acts of genocide than Attila the Hun, Genghis khan,Hitler and Pol Pot put together!*

While I won't argue numbers I will say this: What was done in the name of Christianity was *contrary* to the faith, not in line with it. On the other hand, Nazism (and hitler embraced evolution and Darwinism) just took it to it's logical conclusion...and hence the holocaust. And of course we now have euthenasia, abortion and on and on...

*IMHO Religion is no more than Dark age Politics, and has got NOTHING to do with Science, not even Science fiction for that matter. Still can take this seriously! its a joke right... come on Fess up !*

You certainly have a right to your opinion and ,again, alot of people certainly use religion and Christianity for their own ends. But history and archaeology will disagree with you regarding the claims of Biblical Christianity. Either Jesus Christ lived or He did not. There is no historical reason to doubt He lived...and died. Historians tell us that the disciples died as martyrs for a resurrected Christ. Just before the resurrection they were hiding in fear.

Don't think it could happen? One question I have for those who doubt the existence of God is "Do you have the sum total of all knowlege?" and "If you have a whopping 1% of all total knowlege of everything that leaves 99% of the pie. How do you know the evidence you are looking for isn't there?

When I was a very small child, I had the strange idea that our community just floated out in space and that's all there was. I've since learned that I was wrong. There was more that I hadn't yet discovered.

Not all answers reside in science (although I would argue that Darwinism is a philosophy/religion and not a science). You need to consider what history and archaeology have to say.

If I see a building, I know there was a builder. That is a faith statement. This web site exists. "I've never seen the KDE-LOOK webmaster, so he doesn't exist." Silly thought, isn't it?




Ten out of Ten people die...
www.needgod.com

Reply to this

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.

 Re: Re: Re: Science

 
 by ArbitraryReason on: Dec 23 2005
 
Score 50%

U may find this of interest, ;)

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/23/1557231&from=rss

"The BBC reports that research into evolution's inner working has been named rtop science achievement of 2005 From the article: 'The prestigious US journal Science publishes its top 10 list of major endeavours at the end of each year. The number one spot was awarded jointly to several studies that illuminated the intricate workings of evolution. The announcement comes in the same week that a US court banned the teaching of intelligent design in classrooms.'"

Looks like the enemy's of the creation crusade have won a year end victory !


Funny, It Worked Last Time...
Reply to this

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 Re: Tim Brown

 
 by ArbitraryReason on: Dec 24 2005
 
Score 50%

OK Tim Brown U wanted contradictions,

Here are a few:

Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)

Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)

Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)

Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.

Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)

Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)

Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your possession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)

Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)

Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)

Is God Peaceable?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36)
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36)

Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Shall we call people names?
Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.

Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)

How many gods are there?
Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7)

Are we all sinners?
Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3)
Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6)

When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

Just because these can be "explained" doesn't mean that they don't exist. Healthy religion contains the spirit of debate, like Jacob wrestling with the angel. The fundamentalist attitude that "everything is carved in stone, finished" is unsustainable.

Just as you can make any sentence you like from the dictionary by choosing certain words, you can prove any point you want by juggling the millions of concepts in the Bible. This is something that both Christians and Jews are adept at. Again, the intention is what matters. The Zohar says something to the effect that: "If people are discussing Torah, and they disagree, it doesn't matter, what's important is that they are talking about Torah."

There are strains of the Christian church who refer to the Bible as a 'Sword'. The metaphor becomes real when they attack the freedoms of others. These contradictions are pointed out for their sake. Many good people believe the Bible is literally God's Word ('sWord?!?), and reverence it and its teachings appropriately. But Jesus said: "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."(Matt.26:52.)

Try if you can to explain this without using the words "context" or "interpretation" it's widely known that most adept Christians are better word wranglers than successful politicians, pardon the pun but, necessity is the mother of creation.

Some interesting quotes:

Q. Why did God invent Mormons?
A. So Christians would know how Jews feel.


As is clearly demonstrated in a multitude of places, including the Jesus Seminar, the "words of Jesus" in the New Testament are fabricated, and cannot be attributed to the actual person of Yeshua ben Nazaret, and cannot accurately be called "The Truth."

Overwrought "faith" does not change history, and quoting the book of John is meaningless in light of historical fact.

Organized Christianity has probably done more to retard the ideals that were its founder's than any other agency in the world." - Richard Le Gallienne (Peter)

Bible perversion by the christian faith, lets start with the Devil shall we ...... read on

The Christian Satan is vastly different than the original Hebrew "satan," an "obstructing angel," that is short-lived and generic.

Babylonian influences solidified this entity into a specific, evil being, and now, Christianity has elevated the Devil to an equal footing with God. Bible belt teenagers becoming 'Satanists' and going on killing sprees are the obvious products of a fundamentalist environment; borne of parents who see evil everywhere, from Harry Potter books to Tinky Winky, these kids rebel in the easiest way: becoming what their parents most fear and obsess over. They do it by claiming belief in a "religion" that owes its very existence to Christianity. (And yes, Anton Lavey).

The Christian obsession with the Devil and witchcraft actually fosters and propagates what they try so hard to repress.

Fundamentalist abhorrence of evil is really a lack of faith, because God created Evil:
[Isa 45:7 KJV] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Trying to avoid the issue, newer translations change "evil" to "woe," or "calamity," but the Hebrew word in the original is "Ra," which translates into "Evil."

As Christianity took over Europe, attempts to suppress Pagan holy day celebrations met fierce resistance. Their solution was to absorb these holidays, purloin them, and make them into Christian holidays.

Christians object to Halloween, because it is of Pagan origin (Samhain). To be consistent, then, they should also reject Christmas (Yule), Easter (Ostara), and Pentecost (Lugnasað), also Pagan holidays co-opted by Christians in an attempt to erase the true origins. They should also reject the Resurrection (Pagan) and the transubstantiation of bread and wine into blood and flesh (Pagan). Christian demons and devils are no different than Buddhist, or even Hindu ones (Not as colorful though...) Christian God-forms (Father, Son, & Holy Ghost, the Devil) are just as "true" or "false" as any other religions'.

Christians believe that Pagans worship the Earth, and say it is sin to worship the created, instead of worshiping the Creator. This confused notion of separating creator and created is particularly vain, and is used by Christians to justify trashing the land.
Thousands of people were crucified in Judea during Roman times. By concentrating on the suffering of Jesus, the Gospels convey the impression that he was a rare victim of this brutal form of Roman execution.

Leviticus has dire warnings against even touching the skin of pigs-doesn't this imperil the souls of Christian football players?

If one can see through to the underlying metaphor (or parable), and glean the good from scripture, fine. But justifying intolerance with dogmatic fixation on the literal inerrancy of every line in the book leads to simplistic conclusions, and often contradictory ones.

Fundamentalists are obsessed with making the world clear cut and orderly. Subtlety or complexity upsets and confuses them. Alternate points of view, or attitudes of flexibility or openness drive them crazy. Possessed by their own fear of destabilization, they are driven to impose their will on others. They even view their inflexibility as a virtue. Their fear and mistrust feeds on itself, and grows exponentially.

And there is so much more out there, leads me to believe the only ones going to hell are the Christians........

Oh.... Happy Holidays by the way !

Peace Out.


Funny, It Worked Last Time...
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Tim Brown

 
 by timbrown527 on: Dec 27 2005
 
Score 50%

OK Tim Brown U wanted contradictions,

Here are a few:

****************************
By reading your response to me, I really doubt you are really looking for answers, but I'll supply them. at least for the benefit of others that come along. I will not dignify the rest of the text with a response. It's just inflammatory.

Past that, I'm not sure the following means much. You don't want "interpretations". Therefore you are ruling out finding the intent of a given passage...
****************************


"Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)"

**************
The hebrew word for “murder” in the commandment actually is a reference to an act of killing another out of anger and revenge. The word in ch. 32 is not. But rather a term referring to execution -- in this case for unbelief. That is not a contradiction.
*************


"Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)"

**************
Again, no contradiction. Man's jealousy is for something that does not belong to himself but another. God's jealousy isn't "impure" because He has a right to our worship...as He made us. We don't have a right to what others have (and we don't own). Also, God's "jealousy" is one of love and is for our betterment, Human jealousy is sinful because it seeks to satisfy self.
********************


"Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)"
***********************

Again, no contradiction.

Ex. has to do with false witness, what we commonly call "lying". THe point of First Kings is basically "Ok, you wan't lies, I'll give you prophets that tell lies." It's a judgement. God uses false prophets to execute his judgement. "The Lord has spoken evil..." refers again to the judgement of God...it has no reference to lying.
***************************



"Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)"

************
When God takes back what is His, it isn't stealing, is it? He created it, as He did you and me. It is his to give and take.
*****************


"Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)"


*************
The pharisees hassled CHrist because he didn't observe the sabbath as their traditions and man made laws prescribed. He did it as He intended it from the beginning when He gave the Commandments. It's an issue of the heart, not ceremonialism.
************



Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.

*************
Again, no contradiction. The pagan practice (Their neighbors did this) was to create images of false Gods. God wanted them to be different. However,what God is prescribing here is an accurate representation of the True God. He was giving them instructions on how to build the Ark and the Mercy Seat where His presence would abide. What he is condemning in the commandments is Idolatry. In Ex 25, He is prescribing Worship, which He deserves.
*************


"Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)"

******************
James is speaking of "Dead Faith"...which is intellectual assent alone. Even the demons believe in God...intellectually they are fully aware of God and their doom. Yes, they "believe"...but in terror. James is a book that contrasts true saving faith (that produces works) from non-saving faith (intellectual assent alone). True faith leads to obedience to God. In Matthew 7:21, there will be many who "believe" but didn't know Christ personally in this life, even though they demonstrated miraculous signs.

There is no contradiction. Ephesians talks about HOW we are saved (through faith). James talks about the kind of faith that SAVES.
***************


"Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)"

************
The key phrase is "TO BE SEEN OF THEM". Motive. It isn't saying "keep it private". It is better to do something in secret than to do it publically if you are seeking your own glory. But that doesn't mean it is wrong to pray publically or give publically or do good works publically. The issue is the intent of the heart. If it is for one's own glory and not God's, then don't do it. This is in contrast to the pharisees, who did EVERYTHING publically to glorify themselves. That is the context...he just got done talking about them. Read the context. Again, no contradiction.
*******************


"Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your possession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)"

*************
First of all, it was a humane alternative to killing those that God wanted removed from the land of Israel.

Secondly, read the text before and you will find that "slavery" as discussed in the O.T. is not what we think of (as it was in the U.S.). God put into effect all kinds of laws to guard the well-being of those who were slaves. Those who were under what could be called "work contracts" were released.

I have no idea what you put Matt 23:10 in there for, it reads (NIV) "Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ"

************


"Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)"

****************
The character of God is constant. That is comforting to those who trust Christ. The context is one of comparing His character, which is supreme, to that of man's which is fallen. God doesn't lie. Man does. In Exodus 32, Moses had asked God to relent in spite of God's spoken intent to judge those who were rebelling. God honored Moses' faith. God had threatened judgement. There was no DECREE of judgement. (See Jer 4:28, Ezek. 24:14, Zech. 8:14,15). There comes a point where a threat from God becomes a decree. A person who chooses disbelief long enough will cross a line where return is impossible...in other words, God will ratify the decision and make it irreversable.

Here we have an "anthropomorphism". What God did is described as it appears from the human point of view.
**************


"Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. "

**************
In other words, the effects of sin are felt through many generations. We see this going on now; If someone is an alcoholic father, it tends to be an issue for a number of generations down the line. This is not a reference to punishment, but the effects of sin cascading through a number of generations.

The second verse DOES speak of judgement which is borne by the unredeemed individual.
****************



"Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)"

****************
I have NO idea where you are getting the word "evil". Here's what the NIV states:
"I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things..."

likewise for the KJV and NASB.

What contradiction? By the way, you repeat this later in your post. You might want to reread the text or perhaps find out if the original Hebrew word means "evil".
****************



"Is God Peaceable?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36)
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36) "

***************
Jesus gave that promise to His followers. He gives those of us who trust in Him peace, even when we are in the midst of life's storms. I've experienced it many times, and it makes our faith grow deeper and stronger.

In Matthew, he is referring to the division it will cause to follow Him. The mere fact that we are having this conversation shows this to be true. The truth divides. Truth and falsehood cannot coexist in harmony. We cannot be agreed and the faith I have in Christ is costing my popularity with many who don't believe. See the line drawn betwen you and me?

Jesus gives me peace in the midst of the storm, but he also said that our faith may cost the temporal "peace" that exists between those who follow Christ and those who choose disbelief.

The peace he promised is personal and inner, the other is interpersonal...which can be seen from the context. It costs something to follow Christ...it may mean being rejected by your own family.
*******************


"Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

***********
Here, Jesus was talking to the pharisees
who had brought up Jesus words recorded in 5:31. The OT law required that multiple witnesses to establish the truth of a matter. Here he has discussed himself as Messiah. He had multiple witnesses from those around Him who recognized Him for Who He was (and IS). All He is doing here is showing that the standard in Deut. 17:6 has been met.

No contradiction.
*********


"Shall we call people names?
Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind."

***********
No contradiction. Firstly, we (as humans)cannot justifiably call someone a fool...it is just verbal abuse from a sinful heart and sinful motives. We don't know all the facts. However, God knows all the facts. He can JUSTLY call someone as they are. He Is The Judge!

Secondly, the point Jesus is making throughout this passage is how impossibly high God's standards are. We can't be saved by keeping the law. The purpose of the Law is to show us that we don't meet God's holy standard...so we will be driven to Him for mercy and salvation based on the sacrifice of Christ which is the payment for our sin.
*******************


"Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)"

***********************
No man has seen God (the Father) at any time, because He is Spirit. You can't see a spirit...we don't have the capacity for that. He didn't literally see God's "face"...in a physical sense. The term "face" refers to some manifestation of God's nature, which Moses referred to as God's "Glory". This is what he asked to see in verse 18.

The Bible uses anthropomorphisms to express things of God in human terms. In the Psalms, it says that we are under His "wings"...but God is not a bird. That is what is happening here.
*********************

"How many gods are there?
Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7)"

******************
One in unity, not number. The same term is used to describe how a man and wife become "one". It is a statement of Monotheism while not contradicting the truth of the Triune nature of God.
*********************


"Are we all sinners?
Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3)
Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6)"

*******************
Yes, we are all sinners. Yet by placing our trust in God, we are declared "righteous" ultimately based on the sacrifice of Christ. While Job had not "trusted Christ", he was submissive to God and it was reflected in his character. If you read through the book of Job, you'll see it exhibited. Am I a sinner? YES!!! Do I mess up? YES!!! But when God looks at Tim Brown, He sees someone who has trusted in Him for Grace and Mercy. He has declared me judicially as "righteous". I'm "upright" insofar as I have placed my trust in Christ...and there are natural outworkings.
******************

When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

************
Mark 15:22 reads: " And they brought Him to the place Golgotha, which is translated, Place of a Skull." Again, in the NIV, NASB and KJV. I don't know what version you are using!
***************

"Just because these can be "explained" doesn't mean that they don't exist."

*********
So, it appears that you *want* there to be contradictions. If not, explanations should eliminate them for you. There are those who doubt but lean toward belief. Others doubt and lean toward unbelief. To those who don't want to believe, no answer will be sufficient.

So, what are you here for? If you want to reject God, that is your choice. But you will reap the fruit of your choice.

Apologetics do not win a human heart. Especially one that is not seeking. Apparently, to your loss, you are not. At least not at this time. I have endeavored to be polite to you. I hope I have succeded in at least some measure.

You have spent many hours looking at the Bible. But it appears that you have been doing so merely to find reason to disregard it. Aldus Huxley "didn't want there to be a God" so he could live his life as he pleased. Well, he succeeded. But he didn't erase the consequences by not believing. Just as there are laws such as the law of gravity there is the law of sin and death..."The soul that sins shall die." To sin means to fall short of God's standard. God gave us his impossibly high standard to show us that we can't meet his requirement on our own. So the law drives us to CHrist, Who bore YOUR sin and MINE. He paid for your sin when he died on that cross 2000 years ago.

Jesus Christ was either a liar, a lunatic or He is Lord. You can't say he's a "good moral teacher" or a "good prophet".

I say He Lord. The Christ, the Son of the living God. He has proven Himself in my life time and again.

He has been used in the name of "Christianity" to do many horrible things. But that is in spite of Who He is and what He teaches, not because of it.

So, what will YOU do with HIM?


Ten out of Ten people die...
www.needgod.com

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-

 Re: Re: Re: Tim Brown

 
 by ArbitraryReason on: Dec 27 2005
 
Score 50%

You just proved my point... lol

That is, Christian Fundamentalist fanatics can twist the bible to there point of view all day long, there is no black and white in that book its all down to interpretation, How can you have the arrogance to lay claim to the "Correct Context of any passage in the Bible, most biblical scholars openly claim that most context gets lost in the translation from the original Hebrew, most of the new testament started out in Greek and then later Aramaic....its a convoluted mess, And u claim to have the almighty Babel fish answers ! My God !

It is said by scholars of the Jewish faith that Christianity is a false faith as the so call Christian Messiah did not meet any of the old testament conditions.

Argue that with the Jewish faith if you like, of which, "if" I were to adopt a faith, I think Judaism would be it.

Again, what date was Jesus really born on?, or was it changed to stamp out the Pagan festival of Yule ?? along with all the others!

Whole Cultures have lost there heritage and history due to the purging and cover tactics of the christian church, how many witches were put to the stake? only the New testament uses the "Devil, and Hell " as a scare tactic, it's sick in this day and age that people propagate this trash, and especially brow beat small children with it !

I say we have lost far more to Christianity than we will ever gain from it, if anything is Evil in this world it is your use your said faith.


Anyway, research I did not, probably about 20 mins, edifying information about Christian fundamentalist tactics and propaganda is freely available all over the Net, try visiting this page and stating your case with these people and see how far you get, I'd be interested in following your progress.

http://www.dim.com/~randl/tcont.htm

Some people " strange as you may think" find it offensive to hear what christian creationist/fundamentalists are trying to do, and what they are trying to force into to class rooms and heads of our children.

Was not your previous attempt at this software for MS Windows called Project Sword?

U think the bible is a sword?, a religious weapon? there was a snippet from the bible about living by the sword in my last post was there not!

And as said, Faith is not Proof, God cannot be proved, its that simple, Saul and John both have very shady and checkered history's as researches are finding out, as your faith springs from the writing's of these people, U may find the New testament turned upside down and inside out very very soon.


Funny, It Worked Last Time...
Reply to this

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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Tim

 
 by timbrown527 on: Dec 28 2005
 
Score 50%

Well, then I guess there is nothing more I can do for you as far as explanations. You wanted me to deal with the "contradictions" but then said I had to do it without interpreting it, etc.

From what I have read from you, I doubt you will accept this but the Bible is its own best interpreter. I know, "LOL". But let's take your quote of James as an example. You said that James teaches salvation by works. The problem is that IN CONTEXT, you find it doesn't.

Later, James says clearly "Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith BY my works". In other words, James tells us what he meant by "faith without works is dead". It is not "Faith Plus Works". It is "Faith That Works". That is a big difference.

If I "believe" a plane can get me from New York to California, how can you know I "believe" that until I actually board the plane? I have to "believe" to the point of action. That is saving faith. Anything short is just intellectual belief, which is precisely what James is addressing.

True faith works itself out in practical ways. "If a man looks into a mirror and sees himself and does nothing, he decieves himself". If I know I must TRUST Christ as savior by looking into the mirror of God's Ten Commandments and seeing I fall short, then walk away without trusting him, I am a fool.

Now, if you wish, you can reject this. But James interprets himself. You can't just take a verse and ignore the surrounding ones any more than you can in a letter.

"My wife just left me."

Oh?

Then you read the context. Maybe a few sentences down you read "...I'm so happy she'll be back soon. She went to the store to get butter." Casts new light on the situation.

Yet you have said I can't "interpret" or use "context" if I recall correctly. So, you want me to explain things without the right to explain them? How would that impact my previous example?

Words have meaning. If they don't, then how is it we understand each other in this particular thread? THe OT was written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek. We KNOW what the words in the original languages mean. Sometimes the issue lies in the meaning of a word in the original languages. I have many tools for that purpose and they are commonly available.

I think it all comes down to this; Do You Want There To Be Absolute Truth? From what I have read from you here, I think the answer is no. And if that is the case, I still ask why you are involved in this particualar forum? Why did you even mess with this "Bibletime" thread?

You say "If I go to hell, so be it, I won't be alone." Well the truth is, while others will be there, you WILL be alone. You will be separated from a loving God for all eternity. There will be no passage of time because there will be no "time". Those you love and care for won't be with you; you will be isolated. Alone. No tenderness, noone caring for you or about you. And you will vainly desire that no one else be there. It is a place of stark aloneness where all your unleashed cravings go unmet.

Think of all your loved ones, boarding a train. You LOVE these people. But you aren't sure about getting on that train. But you think "I have time, I'll think about it". Then suddenly the train pulls away. You know it won't return. And you are standing there. You are heartsick. You won't see them again because you didn't act on what you knew. "If only".

Hell is a place of "Weeping and Gnashing of teeth." Why? because "If Only...".

The bottom line is this. We have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of GOd. DO you think you are a good person? By what standard? Stolen anything (I don't care how small it is)? That makes you a thief as it would me. Ever been angry at someone? That makes you a murderer in God's sight because anger is the seed of murder, and demonstrates a corrupt heart. Ever looked a married woman with lust? We all have, haven't we? That makes you an adulterer at heart.

So, you (and I) are guilty of all these things. You will stand before a holy Judge. What are you going to do? Ask for forgiveness? Try that in a court of law. It won't work. Someone has to pay for the crime, or the judge is unjust. In this case, Jesus is the Judge and he came around to your side of the bench and paid your penalty for you, then went back to his side of the bench. He paid for your sin against God.

I have given you the CORE TRUTH of the Christian faith. It is by Faith alone, by Grace alone. It's not about being a member of a church, being "religious", having oddball experiences or emotions or anything like that. It's about turning from your current life of unbelief and turning to Christ, trusting Him and His work on the cross alone as your only hope for salvation.

So will you appropriate what He has provided? In the end it is all that matters.


Ten out of Ten people die...
www.needgod.com


-
.

 Great software!

 
 by timbrown527 on: Dec 5 2005
 
Score 50%

I've been using this off and on since I moved to Linux. I like the new features and expect to be using it more consistently in the future!


Ten out of Ten people die...
www.needgod.com

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Do you like or dislike Ubuntu Unity?
 Yes, unity is alien technology!
 It is less confusing than Gnome 3 default, shell.
 Granny thinks it is much more usable than Gnome 2
 Canonical is embarrasing itself with this split project
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